Curse

Quintus · Jul 01, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I understand that in Guild Wars PvP players want to be able to play PvP with a completely level playing field (everyone has all skills, runes, and weapon upgrades.) and PvE players want to be able to play PvP with their hard earned RP characters. This small problem has lead to a few big patches and many threads.

I propose I compromise to this problem. I believe that Anet should make it so that when a player enters a PvP staging area, they temporarily recieve all skills, runes, and weapon upgrades for the matches they participate in, and when they leave the staging area, they lose the skills, runes, and weapon upgrades you didn't have already.

This will allow a level playing field only based on player skill, as well as, allowing PvE players to play PvP with their beloved RP characters.

I know that it would take alot of coding, testing, and implemention time, but I believe that this may be the best and perhaps only compromise that can be had between the two sides (PvP and PvE), and I have evey confidence in Anet's ability to change and better their game through their amazing patching system.

I would appreciate any comments, complaints, and suggestions for this suggestion, but please leave any insults, flames, etc. out of this thread. Thank you.

Mistress Dasha · Jul 01, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Personally I enjoy having to work for what I have. If I make a PvP character I want to have to unlock all the skills threw PvE how else am I going to learn this new class. I think if they did this the PvP would be dumbed down and alot of unskilled people will just go get random build that is posted on the forums and actually do decent just cause he has the skills/runes/weapon upgrades. IMO GW is doing just fine now seasoned PvPers can get there skills just by PvPing.. so the time they were taking to farm is now PvPing..

DarrenJasper · Jul 01, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Except that it takes about 4x the effort in the PvP system, at least.

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Originally Posted by Mistress Dasha

I think if they did this the PvP would be dumbed down and alot of unskilled people will just go get random build that is posted on the forums and actually do decent just cause he has the skills/runes/weapon upgrades.

No, never. A skilled team with no upgrades would obliterate an unskilled team with all the upgrades, every time.

Quintus · Jul 01, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I would think that you would learn how a class works in PvP better playing PvP than you would playing PvE, but maybe thats just me.

Also, I would have to disagree with the part about the unskilled person doing well. With the system we have now, it is possible because that "unskilled" person might have better equipment than a "skilled" person and beat the said "skilled" person, but with my proposed system the "unskilled" person would have the same equipment as the "skilled" person, so the "unskilled" person would be beaten.

This leads to something I read here awhile ago, many people at the Magic: The Gathering tournaments would copy the exact build as the top M:TG players but that build alone did not make them better. I believe it would be the same in Guild Wars.

PS. Thanks for the reply.

Mistress Dasha · Jul 01, 2005, 07:47 PM // 19:47

hmmm you know thinking of it that way it does make sense.. 8P...

oh and with the MTG comment luck of the cards gives you a 5% win percentage hehe... Gosh I hated loosing to some 6 year old...

Thorivol Liadon · Jul 01, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

What's wrong with having to work a little bit for what you want?

Its a well known fact that people do not respect things they get for free. Its the challenge of obtaining new skills, new runes, upgrades, etc... that keeps us in the game.

If you had UAS or UAR How many people would play the first 3 or 4 "perfect" builds to death and then get bored and quit the game?

Slow steady progress with rewards for success are a well known formula in gaming. Why do you think that something else would work here?

Playing PvP is the best way to learn PvP. PvE'ers NEED better equipment/skills/runes to be even footing with PvP'ers that have as many hours of EXP as they do. So even if its true that PVE'ers get a small edge - consider it a compliment to the skill of the PVP'ers that they need that edge to have a chance to compete with the PVP experts.

As for earning unlocking items, runes etc... in PVE vs PVP.... Remember in PVE you get random drops once in a rare while. In PVP you get what you WANT once in a rare while. I still don't have the weapon upgrade that I want after MANY hours of PVE.

So try to enjoy the quest for greater skills and options as much as you enjoy obliterating enemy teams!

Thorivol

Quintus · Jul 01, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorivol Liadon

What's wrong with having to work a little bit for what you want?

I think that the problem is that PvP players and PvE players want different things. PvP players are willing to work for their wins, the thing they want, and PvE players are willing to work for their gear, etc., the things they want. With my suggestion, though, the PvP players would get what they want in their areas, the PvP areas, and PvE players would get what they want in their areas, the PvE areas.

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Its a well known fact that people do not respect things they get for free. Its the challenge of obtaining new skills, new runes, upgrades, etc... that keeps us in the game.

As I said above, the challenge for PvP is in getting wins, not gear.

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If you had UAS or UAR How many people would play the first 3 or 4 "perfect" builds to death and then get bored and quit the game?

This is one of the most balanced games I have played. It remains balanced because their are no "perfect" builds that cannot be countered. The PvP in this game works on the concept of "countering the counters". For example build A is dominating in PvP. Player makes build B, an exact counter to build A. Build B beats build A and starts dominating PvP. Player makes build C, a counter to build B. This continues to go on and on for the life of the game.

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Slow steady progress with rewards for success are a well known formula in gaming. Why do you think that something else would work here?

It doesn't have to be readily available as soon as you load up the game. It could be a reward for completing the PvE portion of the game, only unlocked for PvP-only characters and RP characters after this completion, and only for the classes you have unlocked it for.

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Playing PvP is the best way to learn PvP. PvE'ers NEED better equipment/skills/runes to be even footing with PvP'ers that have as many hours of EXP as they do.

...or they could play could start playing PvP and slowely (or quickly for some people) build up skill in PvP. Skill isn't something that people are strictly born with. It is something that takes time and patience to build up (even for PvP players).

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So even if its true that PVE'ers get a small edge - consider it a compliment to the skill of the PVP'ers that they need that edge to have a chance to compete with the PVP experts.

Personally, when I lose in PvP, I don't like having to think that maybe I lost only because the winner had better equipment, and when I win, I don't like thinking that maybe I only won because I had better equipment. Also, I think that you are underestimating PvE players. They are Human, so they have the capacity to learn just like any othe Human (even if that other Human is a PvP player).

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As for earning unlocking items, runes etc... in PVE vs PVP.... Remember in PVE you get random drops once in a rare while. In PVP you get what you WANT once in a rare while. I still don't have the weapon upgrade that I want after MANY hours of PVE.

With my system, you wouldn't have to unlock anything, so this wouldn't matter.

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So try to enjoy the quest for greater skills and options as much as you enjoy obliterating enemy teams!

Thorivol

I never said that I don't enjoy PvE. I just enjoy a level playing field more.

Indigo · Jul 01, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Personally, I feel that a nice compromise has been reached. I think that any further movement to placate the PvP only players will only sever the game into two halves that don't need to be. PvP is a nice part of the game. PvE is an equally nice part of the game. Bring them together as a whole, and it's the most fun I've had in a while. PvP now has a way for the PvP player to unlock items at his/her own pace. To unlock all items will only cheapen the gaming experience for those who actually worked from the beginning, and pretty much remove any real need to PvE at all. And that's just unacceptable.

Play the game as a whole game, stop trying to separate the game into two halves.

Quintus · Jul 01, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

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Originally Posted by Indigo

Personally, I feel that a nice compromise has been reached.

I think that it is a nice compromise, too, but that doesn't mean that I don't think it could be better.

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I think that any further movement to placate the PvP only players will only sever the game into two halves that don't need to be.

Maybe I'm missing something very obvious, but I don't think that it would split the game. Person A could still go from PvE to PvP and back with the same character, but with my suggestion, in PvP, only skill and strategy will decide the outcome of a battle.

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PvP is a nice part of the game. PvE is an equally nice part of the game. Bring them together as a whole, and it's the most fun I've had in a while.

I can't disagree with you here.

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PvP now has a way for the PvP player to unlock items at his/her own pace.

The problem with this, though, is that the person with a job, a family, etc. will always be at a disadvantage (even if it is small) while playing against someone who doesn't have a family, job, etc.

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To unlock all items will only cheapen the gaming experience for those who actually worked from the beginning

With my suggestion, the person would only have what they have found in PvE, in PvE.

This could lead to a whole new level in PvE, as well. IE: You could get unique, stronger items in PvE that would otherwise unbalance PvP and just not allow the use of those items in PvP.

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, and pretty much remove any real need to PvE at all. And that's just unacceptable.

I see this as one of the bigger problems in the game. There should be no need for PvE. Just as there should be no need for PvP. There should only be a want for one or the other or both. If you force someone to do something that they don't want to do, then of course they will have a problem, but if you allow someone to do what they want to do, they will enjoy it that much more.
(Maybe I'm only arguing semantics here, though.)

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Play the game as a whole game, stop trying to separate the game into two halves.

Splitting the game is the farthest thing from my mind. Maybe my suggestion splits the game in some way that I can't see, but I believe that it will remain one game but with an increase focus on skill in PvP and an increased focus on uniqueness and character development in PvE.

Indigo · Jul 02, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

I think that it is a nice compromise, too, but that doesn't mean that I don't think it could be better.

Fair enough. Improvement is always necessary to move forward. However, what most PvP Vs. PvE people seem to be suggesting will only move things backward.

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Maybe I'm missing something very obvious, but I don't think that it would split the game. Person A could still go from PvE to PvP and back with the same character, but with my suggestion, in PvP, only skill and strategy will decide the outcome of a battle.

Yes, but as it is now, there is a bit of work that needs to be done to gain these abilities. A sense of accomplishment. Something that unites the players of PvE (and to an extent PvP, who have characters in PvE unlocking things). If you have something you need, you can go get it. But I like the fact that you need to work for it. It's not given to you at the start of your session. There is no reason to "level" anything, it's level now. If you want a skill. Go get it, or save faction. It's really simple and easy now.

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I can't disagree with you here.

Thank you.

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The problem with this, though, is that the person with a job, a family, etc. will always be at a disadvantage (even if it is small) while playing against someone who doesn't have a family, job, etc.

I have a job/family/mortgage/life outside of this game, and yet I have two ascended characters, one near completion, and a PvP character that is benefitting from these two. The game is about skill, as you've said. Why cheapen the experience by "giving away" everything at the start?

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With my suggestion, the person would only have what they have found in PvE, in PvE.

Thereby separating PvE and PvP.

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This could lead to a whole new level in PvE, as well. IE: You could get unique, stronger items in PvE that would otherwise unbalance PvP and just not allow the use of those items in PvP.

Why would I want that? I play PvE and PvP, I like the fact that everything I find/unlock in PvE is usable in PvP. What you are suggesting doesn't level the playing field, it divides and separates the "two parts" of this game and removes the dependency that is so great about this game.

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I see this as one of the bigger problems in the game. There should be no need for PvE. Just as there should be no need for PvP. There should only be a want for one or the other or both. If you force someone to do something that they don't want to do, then of course they will have a problem, but if you allow someone to do what they want to do, they will enjoy it that much more.
(Maybe I'm only arguing semantics here, though.)

Semantics? No. But separation. You seem to want to improve the game, and that is a good thing. But you seem to want to do it at a reduction of gameplay possibilities. The only thing that differs between my oppinion and yours seems to be your lack of ability/willingness to play the game for the benefits of the better skills. You'd rather separate the two halves and remove any sort of reason to PvE at all.

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Splitting the game is the farthest thing from my mind. Maybe my suggestion splits the game in some way that I can't see, but I believe that it will remain one game but with an increase focus on skill in PvP and an increased focus on uniqueness and character development in PvE.

I, honestly, can't see how you are missing that you are suggesting to split it right down the middle.

To recap:

You seem to want to remove the dependency on PvE (splitting PvE from PvP)
You seem to want to give PvP players every item/skill/rune in the game (splitting the need for PvE from PvP)
You seem to want to make two separate games ("There should be no need for PvE. Just as there should be no need for PvP.")

You seem to say one thing, and then mean another. Splitting the game is anything that removes the dependency/relationship of one to another. Simply having them co-exist in the same title doesn't mean that they aren't seperate. The dependency of one to another is what intrigued me about this game it's what will keep me, and those like me, playing this game.

Quintus · Jul 02, 2005, 05:11 AM // 05:11

I see now that my suggestion would split the game, but I fail to see how this would strictly be a bad thing. As of now Anet is trying to take to groups of people who expect different things out of the game. A PvP player wants to be rewarded for skill and good strategy. The reward? A won match (and the bragging rights that come with that win). Where as, a PvE player wants to be rewarded for character progression. The reward? New items, skills, etc. that show this progression.

I agree with your statement that players want a sence of accomplishment. However, accomplishment for each side is different. The accomplishment for PvP is beating your opponent. The accomplishment for PvE, however, is progressing your character to new levels of items, skills, etc. Both of these goals are aquired through work, but the work is also different. The work for PvP is the discovery of new builds, improved timing, etc. Neither of which can be obtained without access to every tool neccessary to make a build. The work for PvE is going through the missions, killing the "bosses", and finding the items.

I don't think you will agree with my sentiments, so I propose a compromise.

Instead of having unlocked everything in every PvP zone. My new suggestion would be to add a new arena after you pass all of the PvE missions. This arena would have all skills, runes, etc. unlocked for it and for it only. In this arena you wouldn't get any faction or experience. Also you wouldn't have it unlocked for PvP only characters until after you have completed the PvE portion of the game.

I suggest this arena for the sole purpose of testing new builds. This way I wouln't go through the PvE with a Warrior, for example, only to find that I hate playing a Warrior in PvP. Also if I hate Mesmer in PvE, I might find that I love it in PvP.

Indigo · Jul 02, 2005, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

I see now that my suggestion would split the game, but I fail to see how this would strictly be a bad thing. As of now Anet is trying to take to groups of people who expect different things out of the game. A PvP player wants to be rewarded for skill and good strategy. The reward? A won match (and the bragging rights that come with that win). Where as, a PvE player wants to be rewarded for character progression. The reward? New items, skills, etc. that show this progression.

How could this be a bad thing? Let me count the ways... If you split the game as you suggest, it will completely remove the need for PvE. And eliminate that portion of the game. Because right now, the two are dependant on each other for a complete game experience. This would result in the game being taken over by PvP players, for awhile, all playing the same 3 or 4 "Uber" builds and then it would fade into obscurity like so many games before it.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

I agree with your statement that players want a sence of accomplishment. However, accomplishment for each side is different.

I'm going to stop you there. This is where we completely disagree. You see this as two sides, I see it as two aspects of one entity. The difference? My view is a whole game, yours seems to be two different games under the same title. In your example, PvP is merely playing another user, and PvE is merely playing the computer. The two should overlap, and do overlap nicely in the game's current good configuration. PvE is dependant on PvP, and vice versa. These are good things. They bring balance to the game. Keeping everyone honest.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

The accomplishment for PvP is beating your opponent.

I would think that PvP's accomplishment would be teamwork, if you're going to seperate it from the rest of the game. Beating your opponent is merely a side effect of good teamwork. And teamwork can be exercised out in PvE with your guild. If you know that a certain skill will help you, call on them, work together and you will all accomplish great things to help your guild succeed. PvP shouldn't be reduced to just logging in and getting what you want. There should be effort involved. A struggle. Something to make you feel like you've earned what you have. As I do with all of my characters. Perhaps there are those who would rather have everything now and easy. I say let them play games that give you everything when you want it. Like UT2004, for example. But even that game, in some modes, makes you run from weapon tree to weapon tree to gather up the weapons you want. So even there, is effort put forth for gain. A sense of accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

The accomplishment for PvE, however, is progressing your character to new levels of items, skills, etc.

In a normal MMO, I would whole-heartedly agree with you. But this is innovation. It's different. So you need a different mindset to look at it properly, IMO. PvE is linked, like it or not, to PvP. Without one or the other, the game dies. Whether you see it or not, the game is lessened by losing one aspect or the other.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

Both of these goals are aquired through work, but the work is also different. The work for PvP is the discovery of new builds, improved timing, etc. Neither of which can be obtained without access to every tool neccessary to make a build. The work for PvE is going through the missions, killing the "bosses", and finding the items.

I disagree here. Timing and Build discovery can be done with practice, and doesn't need to access every skill/item/rune in the game to accomplish that. Work in PvE, in this game, is unlocking the items/skills/runes in the game, that is the reward for both PvE and PvP. Period. You do work in PvE (Now in PvP as well) and you are rewarded with skills/items/runes, or the means by which to "purchase" them. The reward of discovery makes games fun.

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Originally Posted by Quintus

I don't think you will agree with my sentiments, so I propose a compromise.

Instead of having unlocked everything in every PvP zone. My new suggestion would be to add a new arena after you pass all of the PvE missions. This arena would have all skills, runes, etc. unlocked for it and for it only. In this arena you wouldn't get any faction or experience. Also you wouldn't have it unlocked for PvP only characters until after you have completed the PvE portion of the game.

I suggest this arena for the sole purpose of testing new builds. This way I wouln't go through the PvE with a Warrior, for example, only to find that I hate playing a Warrior in PvP. Also if I hate Mesmer in PvE, I might find that I love it in PvP.

I have to say that is interesting. But I don't like the idea of finishing the game once and everything is unlocked for me. (you don't get the option of unlocking two professions until you've reached some insane amount of EXP). Quarrantining the PvP is an interesting twist on the proposition though.

While it would be interesting to find out about various things prior to playing them in PvE, or the portion of PvP that matters, I still have to disagree. Basically because it would ultimately pull players from the HoH, and that might make Korea lose favor, too often.

This was fun. But in the end, it isn't you or I that decides what direction a game is headed, but the developer who is responsible for such actions.

Have fun.

JoDiamonds · Jul 03, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

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Originally Posted by Indigo

How could this be a bad thing? Let me count the ways... If you split the game as you suggest, it will completely remove the need for PvE. And eliminate that portion of the game.

Huh?

I play PvE because I like the storyline, and I do like developing a character. Why would this go away?

I find it strange that you call it a "need for PvE". PvE is a reward in of itself, and I suspect that many players, maybe even most players, don't even touch PvP, or maybe just a dabble in some arenas.

I'm not for universal unlocking, but I've never understood this argument. Why can't someone play PvE characters that develop over time and PvP characters that don't?

I've read the extensive bits going back and forth (with hopefully not too much skimming), but I don't see the problem. The "separation" that would occur is that players who don't like PvE wouldn't be forced to play it. The fact that PvP-only players are downright infesting PvE isn't good for anyone. They don't want to be there. They are the players who simply want to rush through everything as fast as possible, which most PvE players object to. And PvE players have every incentive to keep developing their PvE characters for PvE purposes. Yes, it's nice to have another incentive to develop your PvE character, but I think the harm it brings by forcing PvP players into PvE greatly outweighs the general good.

(WARNING: Potentially Useful Suggestion might follow! Skip if you want only the cruft of this writing! )

That said, the PvP world doesn't have to all go one way on this. There could be a few arenas that are fully unlocked, and a few arenas that are only open to PvE players, and some kinds of things in between.

This seems to be an option missed by most players, and possible ArenaNet also. Why do all PvP areas need to be open to all PvP players at the highest levels? Sure, the Tombs should be open for everyone, because the absolutely highest form of competition surely shouldn't require PvE. But there could be an almost equal, topmost level competition strictly for PvE players, which would keep some incentive for people to develop PvE characters for PvP purposes.

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Because right now, the two are dependant on each other for a complete game experience. This would result in the game being taken over by PvP players, for awhile, all playing the same 3 or 4 "Uber" builds and then it would fade into obscurity like so many games before it.

Why would the game be taken over by PvP players? I feel like I've totally missed some part of this argument.

PvP players can't even enter the PvE parts of the game. How could they possibly take it over? What in the world does that mean?

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I'm going to stop you there. This is where we completely disagree. You see this as two sides, I see it as two aspects of one entity. The difference? My view is a whole game, yours seems to be two different games under the same title. In your example, PvP is merely playing another user, and PvE is merely playing the computer. The two should overlap, and do overlap nicely in the game's current good configuration. PvE is dependant on PvP, and vice versa. These are good things. They bring balance to the game. Keeping everyone honest.

Keeping everyone honest how? That's is just rhetoric.

I like the idea of each part of the game overlapping. It's great. That doesn't mean I want to impose that on everyone else. If there are players who want to just play PvP or just play PvE, they should be able to. More to the point, they should be able to without feeling like they are severely handicapped by not playing the part of the game they don't enjoy.

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I would think that PvP's accomplishment would be teamwork, if you're going to seperate it from the rest of the game. Beating your opponent is merely a side effect of good teamwork. And teamwork can be exercised out in PvE with your guild. If you know that a certain skill will help you, call on them, work together and you will all accomplish great things to help your guild succeed. PvP shouldn't be reduced to just logging in and getting what you want. There should be effort involved. A struggle. Something to make you feel like you've earned what you have. As I do with all of my characters. Perhaps there are those who would rather have everything now and easy. I say let them play games that give you everything when you want it. Like UT2004, for example. But even that game, in some modes, makes you run from weapon tree to weapon tree to gather up the weapons you want. So even there, is effort put forth for gain. A sense of accomplishment.

Many, many players, myself included, like developing characters and even just "stuff" over time. (See: The Sims, SimCity, etc.)

But you don't mention the satisfaction of competition. It's not for everyone. But unless there's a level playing field, you take away the sense of accomplishment of developing your own personal skills, rather than some bits in a computer.

Even if it's "only a game", there's something to be said for being good at it relative to other people. Can't people have that too? No one is trying to take away the PvE experience you are lauding; let the PvP players enjoy the game they like to the utmost too. It's almost there in Guild Wars. That's why people keep making suggestions, to make the game better. Not because they want to turn Guild Wars into some other game.

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In a normal MMO, I would whole-heartedly agree with you. But this is innovation. It's different. So you need a different mindset to look at it properly, IMO. PvE is linked, like it or not, to PvP. Without one or the other, the game dies. Whether you see it or not, the game is lessened by losing one aspect or the other.

The game is absolutely lessed if you take one element away. So I think we can all agree to not take anything away. No one has suggested taking any of it away, right?

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I disagree here. Timing and Build discovery can be done with practice, and doesn't need to access every skill/item/rune in the game to accomplish that. Work in PvE, in this game, is unlocking the items/skills/runes in the game, that is the reward for both PvE and PvP. Period. You do work in PvE (Now in PvP as well) and you are rewarded with skills/items/runes, or the means by which to "purchase" them. The reward of discovery makes games fun.

Are you saying there cannot be any other rewards? That's a rather bold statement from anyone who doesn't wholly own Guild Wars.

There already are rewards: The satisfaction of besting your fellow players in combat. It's just not besting them fairly, yet. (This works from both sides. It's far less fun to lose and wonder if you could have won with better equipment, and far less fun to win and wonder if it's only because you had better equipment.)

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I have to say that is interesting. But I don't like the idea of finishing the game once and everything is unlocked for me. (you don't get the option of unlocking two professions until you've reached some insane amount of EXP). Quarrantining the PvP is an interesting twist on the proposition though.

PvP is quarantined to a great deal already. If you make a PvP character, they can only do PvP. Think of PvP characters as being diseased and dangerous to society: It's ok for normal people (PvE) volunteers to visit them, but they can't just be allowed to roam free!

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This was fun. But in the end, it isn't you or I that decides what direction a game is headed, but the developer who is responsible for such actions.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, concerned citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has."
— Margaret Mead

Tyria is just another world, and we the concerned citizens. Arena Net might be in charge, but we all know they are listening.

Peace.

Quintus · Jul 03, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

JoDiamonds, thanks for posting a reply that I had neither the time nor the patience to post myself. You pretty much summed up all of the feelings on the subject that I have but was having trouble putting into words. The only things I would like to add are these:

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Originally Posted by Indigo

This would result in the game being taken over by PvP players, for awhile, all playing the same 3 or 4 "Uber" builds and then it would fade into obscurity like so many games before it.

Read this please.

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Originally Posted by Post #7

This is one of the most balanced games I have played. It remains balanced because their are no "perfect" builds that cannot be countered. The PvP in this game works on the concept of "countering the counters". For example build A is dominating in PvP. Player makes build B, an exact counter to build A. Build B beats build A and starts dominating PvP. Player makes build C, a counter to build B. This continues to go on and on for the life of the game.

And...

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Basically because it would ultimately pull players from the HoH, and that might make Korea lose favor, too often.

If a PvP arena that has no rewards except for the experience of playing in it pulls players away from the arena that has arguably the best rewards in the game, wouldn't you say that there is a problem with the current PvP system?